Arisan

Dear Haliman,
The word "Arisan" returns many hits on google.com
The closest word to it in English that I can think of is "pool"

It is a gambling term, one which is commonly practiced in the work
place. [ Therefore the question, "Are you in the office pool yet?]
American Baseball, in which the score can end in a number from
0 to 9, provides a neat 10 by 10 square of numbers. You can pay $.25
for each square of two numbers. The winner, determined by the final
score of the Baseball game, wins $25.00. [100 X .25]
But your description implies a deeper social context: the goal is
not to win but to "eventually win." This concept does not exist in my
culture. At least, to my knowledge.
Perhaps an Indonesian can explain the deeper meaning.
I have the vaguest of memory that such a pool existed among
Americans at least 40 to 50 years ago. Each week, a different person
would win the pool. But I cannot remember any details.
Matthew
----------

Post by Haliman
Arisan is an Indonesian word. I don't know who coined it and

neither

Post by Haliman
its etymology. I cannot remember when I heard it for the first time
either. Probably it was in late sixties or early seventies. So far I
haven't found an English word that has the same meaning with it.
Arisan is an act to collect a certain amount of money from each member
of a group of people. The money is given to the winner of a draw among
these people. In the next social gathering, the same amount of money is
collected again from each member. They make a draw again but the
previous winner(s) is/are excluded. This cycle of arisan ends when each
member has received the collection. In the next social gathering, they
create a new cycle of arisan.
The objectives of arisan are to make the social gathering more
attractive and a mutual help to enable the members to purchase

something

Post by Haliman
beyond their affordability.
Could you tell me any English words that have similar meaning with arisan?
Thank you.
Have a nice weekend.
Haliman
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Elly Tjan

2005-07-17 00:25:17 UTC

Sieh, sieh Ni, Matthew for your correction in my last
posting. It becomes more eloquence.

I will explain you about arisan. We call it in
Indonesia American lottery. I didn't know where it's
name come from.

Arisan: There are 10 Indonesian people formed a
group. They have the same aimed of buying something
that each of these 10 people couldn't buy in cash.
Suppose these 10 people want to buy condo. Every
month these 10 people meet together, collect sum of
money, according to the prize of the condo they want
to buy, devided by 10. Let us say: they want to buy
the condo each for $100,000. Every one has to pay
only for $10,000/month. The first meeting, one gets
his or her turn for rolling the 2 dice. The first
winner is the one who gets the highest number and can
get the condo first. Next month the first winner
can't roll the disc anymore, because one gets already
ones condo plus still has to pay $10,000. The arisan
will take 10 month until everybody gets one condo. If
the prize of the condo gets up, each one has to pay
more according to the prize divided by 10. It is a
kind to buy something with borrowing money from the
bank without interest. Each person does not have to
pay at ones in cash. This kind of game is a kind for
helping people with low income. The luckiest is the
first one; he or she can use the condo before the
others. The unfortunate is the last.

I hope that it will help.

Elly

--- Matthew Student <***@msn.com> wrote:

---------------------------------
Dear Haliman,
The word "Arisan" returns many hits on google.com
The closest word to it in English that I can think
of is "pool"

It is a gambling term, one which is commonly
practiced in the work
place. [ Therefore the question, "Are you in the
office pool yet?]
American Baseball, in which the score can end in a
number from
0 to 9, provides a neat 10 by 10 square of numbers.
You can pay $.25
for each square of two numbers. The winner,
determined by the final
score of the Baseball game, wins $25.00. [100 X .25]
But your description implies a deeper social
context: the goal is
not to win but to "eventually win." This concept does
not exist in my
culture. At least, to my knowledge.
Perhaps an Indonesian can explain the deeper
meaning.
I have the vaguest of memory that such a pool
existed among
Americans at least 40 to 50 years ago. Each week, a
different person
would win the pool. But I cannot remember any
details.
Matthew
----------

Post by Haliman
Arisan is an Indonesian word. I don't know who

coined it and
neither

Post by Haliman
its etymology. I cannot remember when I heard it

for the first
time

Post by Haliman
either. Probably it was in late sixties or early

seventies. So
far I

Post by Haliman
haven't found an English word that has the same

meaning with it.

Post by Haliman
Arisan is an act to collect a certain amount of

money from each
member

Post by Haliman
of a group of people. The money is given to the

winner of a draw
among

Post by Haliman
these people. In the next social gathering, the

same amount of
money is

Post by Haliman
collected again from each member. They make a draw

again but the

Post by Haliman
previous winner(s) is/are excluded. This cycle of

arisan ends when
each

Post by Haliman
member has received the collection. In the next

social gathering,
they

Post by Haliman
create a new cycle of arisan.
The objectives of arisan are to make the social

gathering more

Post by Haliman
attractive and a mutual help to enable the members

to purchase
something

Post by Haliman
beyond their affordability.
Could you tell me any English words that have

similar meaning with
arisan?

Post by Haliman
Thank you.
Have a nice weekend.
Haliman
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Haliman

2005-07-17 02:43:46 UTC

Dear Matthew,

What I described about arisan in my previous posting is the genuine
arisan. Its main objectives are friendship and mutual help. I don't
deny that many arisan turn out to be gambling in disguise.

Regards,
Haliman

Post by Matthew Student
Dear Haliman,
The word "Arisan" returns many hits on google.com
The closest word to it in English that I can think of is "pool"
It is a gambling term, one which is commonly practiced in the work
place. [ Therefore the question, "Are you in the office pool yet?]
American Baseball, in which the score can end in a number from
0 to 9, provides a neat 10 by 10 square of numbers. You can pay $.25
for each square of two numbers. The winner, determined by the final
score of the Baseball game, wins $25.00. [100 X .25]
But your description implies a deeper social context: the goal is
not to win but to "eventually win." This concept does not exist in my
culture. At least, to my knowledge.
Perhaps an Indonesian can explain the deeper meaning.
I have the vaguest of memory that such a pool existed among
Americans at least 40 to 50 years ago. Each week, a different person
would win the pool. But I cannot remember any details.
Matthew
----------

Post by Haliman
Arisan is an Indonesian word. I don't know who coined it and

neither

Post by Haliman
its etymology. I cannot remember when I heard it for the first

time

Post by Haliman
either. Probably it was in late sixties or early seventies. So

far I

Post by Haliman
haven't found an English word that has the same meaning with it.
Arisan is an act to collect a certain amount of money from each

member

Post by Haliman
of a group of people. The money is given to the winner of a draw

among

Post by Haliman
these people. In the next social gathering, the same amount of

money is

Post by Haliman
collected again from each member. They make a draw again but the
previous winner(s) is/are excluded. This cycle of arisan ends when

each

Post by Haliman
member has received the collection. In the next social gathering,

they

Post by Haliman
create a new cycle of arisan.
The objectives of arisan are to make the social gathering more
attractive and a mutual help to enable the members to purchase

something

Post by Haliman
beyond their affordability.
Could you tell me any English words that have similar meaning with

arisan?

Post by Haliman
Thank you.
Have a nice weekend.
Haliman
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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-17 04:40:15 UTC

The donated money is what we would call the "pool" in the U.S. But, I am not familiar with what the name of that type of activity is called. If I understand correctly, at end of cycle of meetings, each member will have received the same amount as he/she as contributed?
Natasha

Haliman <***@gmx.net> wrote:
Arisan is an Indonesian word. I don't know who coined it and neither
its etymology. I cannot remember when I heard it for the first time
either. Probably it was in late sixties or early seventies. So far I
haven't found an English word that has the same meaning with it.

Arisan is an act to collect a certain amount of money from each member
of a group of people. The money is given to the winner of a draw among
these people. In the next social gathering, the same amount of money is
collected again from each member. They make a draw again but the
previous winner(s) is/are excluded. This cycle of arisan ends when each
member has received the collection. In the next social gathering, they
create a new cycle of arisan.

The objectives of arisan are to make the social gathering more
attractive and a mutual help to enable the members to purchase something
beyond their affordability.

Could you tell me any English words that have similar meaning with arisan?

Thank you.

Have a nice weekend.
Haliman

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Bill Kelly

2005-07-17 13:48:05 UTC

There is also a special kind of investment pool called a tontine. It is
named after an Italian-born French banker named Lorenzo Tontine.

This reminds me of an old joke.

In heaven:

1. The English are the policemen
2. The French are the cooks
3. The Germans are the engineers.
4. The Italians are the lovers.
5. The Swiss are the bankers.

In hell:

1. The English are the cooks.
2. The French are the engineers.
3. The Germans are the policemen.
4. The Italians are the bankers.
5. The Swiss are the lovers.

Bill Kelly
Connecticut USA

--

timefactor

2005-07-17 14:35:25 UTC

Hello all,

My name is Galina and I'm from Russia.
I live in Saint Petersburg and work at a vegetarian restaurant.

I've been reading messages of this group a long while and now I also have some questions.
1. Please, could you explain me what's the difference between "quickly" and "fast"? In what cases I could use these words.
2. It is normal when I use for example, "let me know". But isn't it strange if I say "I will let you know?"
3. What's the difference between "want" and "wish?" and between "affect" and "influence". Could you give me examples with these words?

Thank you very much

Galina

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Matthew Student

2005-07-17 21:43:44 UTC

Post by timefactor
Hello all,
My name is Galina and I'm from Russia.
I live in Saint Petersburg and work at a vegetarian restaurant.
I've been reading messages of this group a long while and now I also have some questions.
1. Please, could you explain me what's the difference between

"quickly" and "fast"? In what cases I could use these words.

"quickly" is an adverb, like "bistro!"
"fast" is an adjective.

"I need this report quickly." is good.
"I need this report fastly." is incorrect.

"I need a fast turnaround on these reports. How quickly can you
finish?" [ turnaround = completion ] Here, fast results are required
and "quickly" is a measure of amount of time needed to complete the
reports.

Now compare:
He is a fast thinker.
He is a quick thinker.
Both are identical.
BUT
He thinks quickly. [correct]
He thinks fastly. [incorrect]

Post by timefactor
2. It is normal when I use for example, "let me know". But isn't it

strange if I say "I will let you know?"

Both of these usages are correct and fine.
"Let me know" [ if you need additional information. ]
"I will let you know" [ if I need additional information. ]
What is it about this usage that troubles you? Give us more
details.

Post by timefactor
3. What's the difference between "want" and "wish?" and between

"affect" and "influence". Could you give me examples with these words?

Guvno! This is a recurring question which is always difficult to
answer. It needs an engineer to answer, not an artist like myself.
Perhaps if you think of "want" as an ordinary verb and "wish" as
a verb which requires the subjunctive mood. [ not a grammatical
sentence, I KNOW!!]
"I want you to succeed in your study of English."
"I wish that your study of English be successful."

"I want to travel to an English-speaking country."
"I wish that I could travel to an English-speaking country."

English engineers, HELP!

Post by timefactor
Thank you very much

Bylo nichyevo!

Post by timefactor
Galina

Haliman

2005-07-18 01:49:07 UTC

Dear Matthew,

I am afraid that "fast" is also an adverb. For example, He runs fast.
A leopard runs faster than a lion.

In addition, I guess you missed one of Galina's question. She asked you
about the difference between "to affect" and "to influence".

Regards,
Haliman :-)

have some questions.

Post by timefactor
1. Please, could you explain me what's the difference between

"quickly" and "fast"? In what cases I could use these words.
"quickly" is an adverb, like "bistro!"
"fast" is an adjective.
"I need this report quickly." is good.
"I need this report fastly." is incorrect.
"I need a fast turnaround on these reports. How quickly can you
finish?" [ turnaround = completion ] Here, fast results are required
and "quickly" is a measure of amount of time needed to complete the
reports.
He is a fast thinker.
He is a quick thinker.
Both are identical.
BUT
He thinks quickly. [correct]
He thinks fastly. [incorrect]

Post by timefactor
2. It is normal when I use for example, "let me know". But isn't it

strange if I say "I will let you know?"
Both of these usages are correct and fine.
"Let me know" [ if you need additional information. ]
"I will let you know" [ if I need additional information. ]
What is it about this usage that troubles you? Give us more
details.

Post by timefactor
3. What's the difference between "want" and "wish?" and between

"affect" and "influence". Could you give me examples with these words?
Guvno! This is a recurring question which is always difficult to
answer. It needs an engineer to answer, not an artist like myself.
Perhaps if you think of "want" as an ordinary verb and "wish" as
a verb which requires the subjunctive mood. [ not a grammatical
sentence, I KNOW!!]
"I want you to succeed in your study of English."
"I wish that your study of English be successful."
"I want to travel to an English-speaking country."
"I wish that I could travel to an English-speaking country."
English engineers, HELP!

Post by timefactor
Thank you very much

Bylo nichyevo!

Post by timefactor
Galina

Natasha The Bear

2005-07-18 03:54:21 UTC

To affect and influence? It is similar to "want" and "wish." In everyday practical English they are synonymous. You can't define one without using the other. To influence is to affect, and to affect is to influence. I prefer influence only because I like its sound better than affect.
Natasha

Haliman <***@gmx.net> wrote:
Dear Matthew,

I am afraid that "fast" is also an adverb. For example, He runs fast.
A leopard runs faster than a lion.

In addition, I guess you missed one of Galina's question. She asked you
about the difference between "to affect" and "to influence".

Regards,
Haliman :-)

have some questions.

Post by timefactor
1. Please, could you explain me what's the difference between

"quickly" and "fast"? In what cases I could use these words.
"quickly" is an adverb, like "bistro!"
"fast" is an adjective.
"I need this report quickly." is good.
"I need this report fastly." is incorrect.
"I need a fast turnaround on these reports. How quickly can you
finish?" [ turnaround = completion ] Here, fast results are required
and "quickly" is a measure of amount of time needed to complete the
reports.
He is a fast thinker.
He is a quick thinker.
Both are identical.
BUT
He thinks quickly. [correct]
He thinks fastly. [incorrect]

Post by timefactor
2. It is normal when I use for example, "let me know". But isn't it

strange if I say "I will let you know?"
Both of these usages are correct and fine.
"Let me know" [ if you need additional information. ]
"I will let you know" [ if I need additional information. ]
What is it about this usage that troubles you? Give us more
details.

Post by timefactor
3. What's the difference between "want" and "wish?" and between

"affect" and "influence". Could you give me examples with these words?
Guvno! This is a recurring question which is always difficult to
answer. It needs an engineer to answer, not an artist like myself.
Perhaps if you think of "want" as an ordinary verb and "wish" as
a verb which requires the subjunctive mood. [ not a grammatical
sentence, I KNOW!!]
"I want you to succeed in your study of English."
"I wish that your study of English be successful."
"I want to travel to an English-speaking country."
"I wish that I could travel to an English-speaking country."
English engineers, HELP!

Post by timefactor
Thank you very much

Bylo nichyevo!

Post by timefactor
Galina

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Ann.English

2005-07-18 07:17:24 UTC

Post by Natasha The Bear
To affect and influence? It is similar to "want" and "wish." In
everyday practical English they are synonymous.

To affect something is to change it quickly and usually permanently, and
usually to make it worse.

Something that affects you makes you feel a strong emotion.

To influence something is not necessarily quick, not necessarily
permanent, and not necessarily for the worse.

Something that influences you usually works through thinking, not the
emotions.

As Natasha says, there are many sentences where either word would be
OK.

Exercise: Which of these missing words is best made from "to affect"
and which is made from "to influence"?

The new head teacher didn't ------------- the school routine, but she
---------------ed the choice of new textbooks.

I was ------------ed by the film "Sound of Music", but I don't think it
will -------------- the way I vote.

Peter Watkins' "The War Game", on the other hand, was deeply
---------ing, and it -------------ed a whole generation of
ban-the-bombers.

To want is to feel physical desire for. It takes a direct object: I
want more money! It takes TO + verb as an object: I want to sit down.

To wish is to desire in the mind. It takes a sentence as an object: I
wish (that) A was B. It takes TO + verb as an object: I wish to leave.

As Natasha says, there are many sentences where either word would be OK.

Exercise: Which is the better word in each of these gaps?

I w--- a drink! I w--- I didn't.

I w--- it was dinner time. I w--- something to eat.

I hope this is helpful.
Ann English

Answers:

The new head teacher didn't affect the school routine, but she
influenced the choice of new textbooks.

I was affected by the film "Sound of Music", but I don't think it will
influence the way I vote.

Peter Watkins' "The War Game", on the other hand, was deeply affecting,
and it influenced a whole generation of ban-the-bombers.

I want a drink! I wish I didn't.

I wish it was dinner time. I want something to eat.

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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-18 08:04:20 UTC

Those are very good exercises. I passed them but it was only by language "instinct." I could never explain why.
Natasha

Post by Natasha The Bear
To affect and influence? It is similar to "want" and "wish." In
everyday practical English they are synonymous.

To affect something is to change it quickly and usually permanently, and
usually to make it worse.

Something that affects you makes you feel a strong emotion.

To influence something is not necessarily quick, not necessarily
permanent, and not necessarily for the worse.

Something that influences you usually works through thinking, not the
emotions.

As Natasha says, there are many sentences where either word would be
OK.

Exercise: Which of these missing words is best made from "to affect"
and which is made from "to influence"?

The new head teacher didn't ------------- the school routine, but she
---------------ed the choice of new textbooks.

I was ------------ed by the film "Sound of Music", but I don't think it
will -------------- the way I vote.

Peter Watkins' "The War Game", on the other hand, was deeply
---------ing, and it -------------ed a whole generation of
ban-the-bombers.

To want is to feel physical desire for. It takes a direct object: I
want more money! It takes TO + verb as an object: I want to sit down.

To wish is to desire in the mind. It takes a sentence as an object: I
wish (that) A was B. It takes TO + verb as an object: I wish to leave.

As Natasha says, there are many sentences where either word would be OK.

Exercise: Which is the better word in each of these gaps?

I w--- a drink! I w--- I didn't.

I w--- it was dinner time. I w--- something to eat.

I hope this is helpful.
Ann English

Answers:

The new head teacher didn't affect the school routine, but she
influenced the choice of new textbooks.

I was affected by the film "Sound of Music", but I don't think it will
influence the way I vote.

Peter Watkins' "The War Game", on the other hand, was deeply affecting,
and it influenced a whole generation of ban-the-bombers.

I want a drink! I wish I didn't.

I wish it was dinner time. I want something to eat.

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timefactor

2005-07-19 10:32:58 UTC

Ann, thank you very much, that was very helpful

Galina

Post by Ann.English

To affect and═ influence? It is similar to "want" and "wish." In
everyday practical English they are synonymous.

To affect something is to change it quickly and usually permanently, and
usually to make it worse.
Something that affects you makes you feel a strong emotion.
To influence something is not necessarily quick, not necessarily
permanent, and not necessarily for the worse.
Something that influences you usually works through thinking, not the
emotions.
As Natasha says, there═ are many sentences where either word would be
OK.
Exercise:═ Which of these missing words is best made from "to affect"
and which is made from "to influence"?═
The new head teacher didn't ------------- the school routine, but she
---------------ed the choice of new textbooks.
I was ------------ed by the film "Sound of Music", but I don't think it
will -------------- the way I vote.
Peter Watkins' "The War Game", on the other hand, was═ deeply
---------ing, and it═ -------------ed a whole generation of
ban-the-bombers.
To want is to feel physical desire for.═ It takes a direct object:═ I
want more money! It takes TO + verb as an object:═ I want to sit down.
To wish is to desire in the mind.═ It takes a sentence as an object: I
wish (that) A was B.═ It takes TO + verb as an object:═ I wish to leave.
As Natasha says, there are many sentences where either word would be OK.
Exercise:═ Which is the better word in each of these gaps?
I w--- a drink!═ I w--- I didn't.
I w--- it was dinner time.═ I w--- something to eat.
I hope this is helpful.
Ann English
The new head teacher didn't affect the school routine, but she
influenced the choice of new textbooks.
I was affected by the film "Sound of Music", but I don't think it will
influence the way I vote.
Peter Watkins' "The War Game", on the other hand, was deeply affecting,
and it influenced a whole generation of ban-the-bombers.
I want a drink!═ I wish I didn't.
I wish it was dinner time.═ I want something to eat.
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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-18 03:39:50 UTC

The difference between want and wish? In practical English they are synonymous. It is almost impossible to make a mistake if you use them to be the same meaning. They both mean to have a need or desire for something.
"Wish" has a slight nuance to have a need or desire that you believe is not possible.
"I want to go out to dinner tomorrow, or I wish to go out to dinner tomorrow." No difference.
Use both as being the same--nobody will notice.
Natasha

Post by timefactor
2. It is normal when I use for example, "let me know". But isn't it

Post by timefactor
3. What's the difference between "want" and "wish?" and between

Post by timefactor
Thank you very much

Bylo nichyevo!

Post by timefactor
Galina

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timefactor

2005-07-18 03:31:16 UTC

Matthew, thanks :)

Post by timefactor
2. It is normal when I use for example, "let me know". But isn't it

strange if I say "I will let you know?"
════ Both of these usages are correct and fine.═
══════ "Let me know" [ if you need additional information. ]
══════ "I will let you know"═ [ if I need additional information. ]
════ What is it about this usage that troubles you?═ Give us more
details.

I understand it now :) thanks

Post by timefactor
════ Guvno!═

What does it mean?

Galina

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Matthew Student

2005-07-19 20:44:59 UTC

Post by timefactor
Matthew, thanks :)

Post by Matthew Student
Guvno!

Slang for excrement. In English, it is used often as an
expression of frustration.

Post by timefactor
What does it mean?

Ann.English

2005-07-19 22:05:22 UTC

Guvno -

Slang for excrement. In English, it is used often as an
expression of frustration.

Natasha The Bear

2005-07-20 09:55:07 UTC

For sure, "Guvno" is not English.
Natasha

Guvno -

Slang for excrement. In English, it is used often as an
expression of frustration.

Google tells me it's Bulgarian. I didn't need to know this. There's a
perfectly good English word "governor" meaning ruler , shortened to
"guvnor" as a term of respect for an older man. If the Bulgarian word
becomes common it will drive out the English "guvnor." How sad.

Ann

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Matthew Student

2005-07-21 02:35:31 UTC

Post by Natasha The Bear
For sure, "Guvno" is not English.
Natasha

Dear Natasha,
I am half Czech and half Carpathorussian. I grew up with Poles,
Czechs, Slovaks, Ukranians and Slavs. All of these languages use this
word, or variations of it, to mean the "stuff" that a dog leaves on a
curb!
In the USA, we often "adopt" words from our neighbors. Since I
was a boy in the 50s and 60s, I heard this word and others like it.
I meant in no way to offend anyone. However, the discussion of a
word is very different from using words. I will discuss any word, any
time. But I do not use words to offend people. These are two very
different and unrelated subjects. And certainly it has no relation to
"guv", guvnor" and "governor".
Matthew

Post by Natasha The Bear

Guvno -

Slang for excrement. In English, it is used often as an
expression of frustration.

Google tells me it's Bulgarian. I didn't need to know this.

There's a

Post by Natasha The Bear
perfectly good English word "governor" meaning ruler , shortened to
"guvnor" as a term of respect for an older man. If the Bulgarian word
becomes common it will drive out the English "guvnor." How sad.
Ann

timefactor

2005-07-21 06:40:58 UTC

Hi all,

Could you please kindly explain me what's the difference between "amount" and "quantity"?

Thanks in advance

Galina

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Ann.English

2005-07-21 23:12:33 UTC

Post by timefactor
Hi all,
Could you please kindly explain me what's the difference between "amount" and "quantity"?
Thanks in advance

Collins Cobuild English Dictionary for Advanced Learners, 2001: The
amount of something is how much there is, or how much you have, need, or
get. ... If you say there is 'any amount of' something, there is a lot
of it. If you say there is 'any amount of' people or things, there are
many people or things. If you say that something 'amounts to' something
else, you say that they are the same.

A quantity is an amount that you can measure or count. Things that are
available 'in quantity' are available in large amounts.You can use
'quantity' to mean amount, especially when you are comparing the amount
and the quality. When you say that someone or something is an 'unknown
quantity' you mean that nobody knows how they will behave.

Examples: We made a large amount of wine in 2004.
The quantity was OK, but the quality was slightly down.
There was any amount for domestic use, and a quantity of
twelve million bottles for export.

Exercises: Put the best word ('amount' or 'quantity' or 'amounts' or
'quantities' ) in the spaces.

I hope you've done a large ------------- of reading since I saw you
last.

We need only 750 grams of uranium, but it will have to come in small
------------ from all over the world.

This new head teacher is an unknown ______________. She may not
------------ to much.

A small ---------- of harmless storm-water leaked into the Irish Sea,
but now we can safely store high-level waste in --------------.

A small ---------- of flattery will work wonders. I suggest a
reasonable ------------ of chocolates, say, a kilo box.

I hope this helps. I KNOW that a learners dictionary will help. I hope
that you can get one.

Kind regards
Ann English
New Zealand

Answers:

I hope you've done a large amount of reading since I saw you last.

We need only 750 grams of uranium, but it will have to come in small
quantities from all over the world.

This new head teacher is an unknown quantity. She may not amount to
much.

A small amount of harmless storm-water leaked into the Irish Sea, but
now we can safely store high-level waste in quantity.

A small amount of flattery will work wonders. I suggest a reasonable
quantity of chocolates, say, a kilo box.

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timefactor

2005-07-24 09:07:12 UTC

Dear Ann,

Thank you very much for your explanation. I will try to find the dictionary you mentioned.
But I don't have it now, so I still have some questions.
I found in my English-Russian dictionary four different English words that have the same translation into Russian.
Please, could you explain the difference between them and write some examples in what cases we could use them.
Here are they:
Understand √ realize √ grasp √ comprehend

Thank you very much

Galina

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Ann.English

2005-07-24 12:01:41 UTC

Post by timefactor
Dear Ann,
Thank you very much for your explanation. I will try to find the
dictionary you mentioned. But I don't have it now, so I still have
some questions. I found in my English-Russian dictionary four
different English words that have the same translation into Russian.
Please, could you explain the difference between them and write some
examples in what cases we could use them.

Say "... examples of ..." and then,simply, "... how they're used."

A "case" is a set of circumstances more complicated than a simple choice
of a word, so "case" is the wrong word here. Also, in old-fashioned
grammar we used to speak of the "nominative case", etc., of a noun.
These declarative sentences (not-question sentences) are OK:
They are here.
Here they are.

These question sentences are OK:
Are they here?
Where are they?

I suggest "Here they are:"
The colon is correct, because a list is following.

Post by timefactor
Understand √ realise √ grasp √ comprehend

If you understand something you know how or why it happens. If you
understand a language you know what the words mean. If you understand
that A is B then someone has told you that A is B and you believe it.
If you say "Do you understand?" in a sharp voice after you have said
what you want, you are checking that they will obey you.

When you realise A is B, or when you realise that A is B, the truth
A=B becomes part of your way of thinking.

A grasp of something is a good understanding of it.

Comprehend is a formal word for understand.

Exercises. In most sentences below, any of the four words would make
sense. Try to choose the best word.

You will never again strike a child in my care. Do you
----------------?

Once we ---------------d that Jane was cheating us, we
-------------------d why the business was struggling.

The committee cannot -------------- the Minister's attitude.

She cannot -------------- the simplest ideas, and will never
----------------- mathematics.

Answers and notes.

You will never again strike a child in my care. Do you understand?
(This is a formula. The other three words will not fit)

Once we realised that Jane was cheating us, we understood why the
business was struggling. (A simple truth: realise. A complex
situation: understand)

The committee cannot comprehend the Minister's attitude. (Formal:
comprehend)

She cannot grasp the simplest idea, and will never understand
mathematics. (Simple word "grasp" for simple ideas)

Or

She cannot comprehend the simplest idea, and will never grasp
mathematics. (This sentence is here for completeness. "Cannot
comprehend" is formal, in contrast with "simplest idea". "Grasp" is
informal, in contrast with "mathematics". The idea of that person
grasping mathematics is unreal. The sentence is clever and correct, but
I don't suggest trying to write like this.)

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Matthew Student

2005-07-24 21:33:18 UTC

Zdravstvuj, Galina!
Here is Matthew's answer! [with apologies to Ann]
"I totally understand your confusion. If you post such a
question, it means that you grasp the problem.
To comprehend the problem, you must realize that different
languages employ subtle shades of meaning that do not easily have
equivalent words."
Galina, if you can understand the above three sentences, then you
are well on your way to "getting" English!
Matvyeh! [to get = to understand, grasp, realize and to comprehend]
----------

words that have the same translation into Russian.

Post by timefactor
Please, could you explain the difference between them and write some

examples in what cases we could use them.

Post by timefactor
Understand ? realize ? grasp ? comprehend
Thank you very much
Galina

timefactor

2005-07-25 09:09:38 UTC

Privet, Matthew

Thank you. I understood all that you wrote about.
And I realize that there is a difference between languages.
I hope that I'm well on my way to "getting" English

Galina

Post by Matthew Student
Zdravstvuj, Galina!
Here is Matthew's answer!═ [with apologies to Ann]
═ "I totally understand your confusion.═ If you post such a
question, it means that you grasp the problem.
═ To comprehend the problem, you must realize that different
languages employ subtle shades of meaning that do not easily have
equivalent words."
═ Galina, if you can understand the above three sentences, then you
are well on your way to "getting" English!
═ Matvyeh!═ [to get = to understand, grasp, realize and to comprehend]
----------

Post by timefactor
Dear Ann,
Thank you very much for your explanation. I will try to find the

dictionary you mentioned.

Post by timefactor
But I don't have it now, so I still have some questions.
I found in my English-Russian dictionary four different English

words that have the same translation into Russian.

Post by timefactor
Please, could you explain the difference between them and write some

examples in what cases we could use them.

Post by timefactor
Understand ? realize ? grasp ? comprehend
Thank you very much
Galina

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Matthew Student

2005-07-26 23:51:32 UTC

Post by timefactor
Privet, Matthew
Thank you. I understood all that you wrote about.
And I realize that there is a difference between languages.
I hope that I'm well on my way to "getting" English
Galina

Dear Galina,
My post to you was an example of a very challenging technique that
I have used with advanced learners. It demands that you understand
subtle dictinctions among words which a dictionary defines as
equivalent.
Since you state that you understood "all that you wrote", I
declare you to be WELL ON YOUR WAY to "getting" English.
Matthew
-------

Post by Matthew Student
Zdravstvuj, Galina!
Here is Matthew's answer! [with apologies to Ann]
"I totally understand your confusion. If you post such a
question, it means that you grasp the problem.
To comprehend the problem, you must realize that different
languages employ subtle shades of meaning that do not easily have
equivalent words."

timefactor

2005-07-21 06:43:11 UTC

Is there any difference between:
1. It takes long time to get there
2. It takes a long time to get there

Or one of them is incorrect?

Galina

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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-21 09:16:37 UTC

The first one is incorrect; you need the article "a."
But, in oral English, quite often when you say #2, it sounds like #1. That "a" sometimes is very silent in speech.
Natasha

timefactor <***@yandex.ru> wrote:
Is there any difference between:
1. It takes long time to get there
2. It takes a long time to get there

Or one of them is incorrect?

Galina

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timefactor

2005-07-21 16:12:41 UTC

Natasha,

thank you so much

Galina

Post by Natasha The Bear
The first one is incorrect; you need the article "a."
But, in oral English, quite often when you say #2, it sounds like #1.═ That "a" sometimes is very silent in speech.
Natasha
1. It takes long time to get there
2. It takes a long time to get there
Or one of them is incorrect?
Galina
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Matthew Student

2005-07-24 21:57:48 UTC

Post by Natasha The Bear
The first one is incorrect; you need the article "a."
But, in oral English, quite often when you say #2, it sounds like

#1. That "a" sometimes is very silent in speech.

Post by Natasha The Bear
Natasha
1. It takes long time to get there
2. It takes a long time to get there

Natasha, I immediately saw this second sentence as:
"It takes [z]a long time to get there"

The normally voiceless "s" becomes a voiced "z".
And in oral [spoken] English it becomes very quiet.
This is a very difficult usage to isolate.
You did good!
Matthew
---------

Post by Natasha The Bear
Or one of them is incorrect?
Galina

timefactor

2005-07-21 07:54:19 UTC

Post by Natasha The Bear
For sure, "Guvno" is not English.
Natasha

══ Dear Natasha,
════ I am half Czech and half Carpathorussian.═ I grew up with Poles,
Czechs, Slovaks, Ukranians and Slavs.═ All of these languages use this
word, or variations of it, to mean the "stuff" that a dog leaves on a
curb!
════ In the USA, we often "adopt" words from our neighbors.═ Since I
was a boy in the 50s and 60s, I heard this word and others like it.
════ I meant in no way to offend anyone.═ However, the discussion of a
word is very different from using words.═ I will discuss any word, any
time.═ But I do not use words to offend people.═ These are two very
different and unrelated subjects.═ And certainly it has no relation to
"guv", guvnor" and "governor".
════ Matthew

Dear Matthew,

I've just understood what meant. But I must say that Russians use this word only like a swear-word. And that's why I didn't understand you, I didn't expect to find such expression here.

My advice - never use it, because it's very rude and impolite.
You could, of course, use it but it will show that you aren't nice person.

I hope you understand what I mean.
And sorry for my English, it's still difficult for me to explain my thoughts.

Galina

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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-21 08:57:50 UTC

What happened to good ol' "Dermo?"
Natasha

Post by Natasha The Bear
For sure, "Guvno" is not English.
Natasha

Post by Natasha The Bear

Guvno -

Slang for excrement. In English, it is used often as an
expression of frustration.

Google tells me it's Bulgarian. I didn't need to know this.

There's a

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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-18 02:14:34 UTC

In my heaven, the Italians must be the cooks.
Natasha

Bill Kelly <***@snet.net> wrote:
There is also a special kind of investment pool called a tontine. It is
named after an Italian-born French banker named Lorenzo Tontine.

This reminds me of an old joke.

In heaven:

1. The English are the policemen
2. The French are the cooks
3. The Germans are the engineers.
4. The Italians are the lovers.
5. The Swiss are the bankers.

In hell:

1. The English are the cooks.
2. The French are the engineers.
3. The Germans are the policemen.
4. The Italians are the bankers.
5. The Swiss are the lovers.

Bill Kelly
Connecticut USA

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Haliman

2005-07-17 16:47:16 UTC

Hi Natasha,

Thank you for your comment. What I described earlier is the proper and
original arisan. It still continues monthly in the circle of Indonesian
Consulate General in Vancouver, and it includes several Indonesian
expatriates as well.

Arisan also extends into businesses, including motor cycle and car
dealers, real estate, etc.

Unfortunately, there are also many kinds of gambling disguised as arisan.

Regards,
Haliman

Post by Natasha The Bear
The donated money is what we would call the "pool" in the U.S. But, I
am not familiar with what the name of that type of activity is called.
If I understand correctly, at end of cycle of meetings, each member
will have received the same amount as he/she as contributed?
Natasha
Arisan is an Indonesian word. I don't know who coined it and neither
its etymology. I cannot remember when I heard it for the first time
either. Probably it was in late sixties or early seventies. So far I
haven't found an English word that has the same meaning with it.
Arisan is an act to collect a certain amount of money from each member
of a group of people. The money is given to the winner of a draw among
these people. In the next social gathering, the same amount of money is
collected again from each member. They make a draw again but the
previous winner(s) is/are excluded. This cycle of arisan ends when each
member has received the collection. In the next social gathering, they
create a new cycle of arisan.
The objectives of arisan are to make the social gathering more
attractive and a mutual help to enable the members to purchase something
beyond their affordability.
Could you tell me any English words that have similar meaning with arisan?
Thank you.
Have a nice weekend.
Haliman
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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-18 02:28:55 UTC

Halliman,
It's still not clear to me. Does everybody end up receiving the same amount of money as they donated? Zero gain-Zero loss?
Natasha

Haliman <***@gmx.net> wrote:
Hi Natasha,

Thank you for your comment. What I described earlier is the proper and
original arisan. It still continues monthly in the circle of Indonesian
Consulate General in Vancouver, and it includes several Indonesian
expatriates as well.

Arisan also extends into businesses, including motor cycle and car
dealers, real estate, etc.

Unfortunately, there are also many kinds of gambling disguised as arisan.

Regards,
Haliman

timefactor

2005-07-18 15:57:47 UTC

Hello all

Could you please explain what means the phrase "How are things down under?"
I found it in my course book.

Thanks a lot

Galina

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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-18 19:04:46 UTC

"Down under?" I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the U.S., "Down under" is a nickname for Australia, because it's located on the other side of the earth (Under). So, I think in your example they are asking how things are in Australia.
Natasha

timefactor <***@yandex.ru> wrote:
Hello all

Could you please explain what means the phrase "How are things down under?"
I found it in my course book.

Thanks a lot

Galina

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Matthew Student

2005-07-18 22:43:46 UTC

Post by Natasha The Bear
"Down under?" I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the

U.S., "Down under" is a nickname for Australia, because it's located
on the other side of the earth (Under). So, I think in your example
they are asking how things are in Australia.

Post by Natasha The Bear
Natasha

I agree. Natasha, the odd thing is that "Down Under" is not used
for South America or Africa. It is specifically used for Australia.
[It is used with respect, but also with a little bit of irony and
kidding!]
I have never heard it used in a disrespectful way.
Matthew
-----------

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timefactor

2005-07-19 10:35:13 UTC

Thank you, Natasha

It's quite strange, because we just use "Australia" and don't have any special nicknames...
May be I've just never heard about it.

Galina

"Down under?"═ I don't═ know about the rest of the world, but in the U.S., "Down under" is a nickname for Australia, because it's located═ on the other side of the earth (Under). So, I think in your example they are asking how things are in Australia.
Natasha
Hello all
Could you please explain what means the phrase "How are things down under?"
I found it in my course book.
Thanks a lot
Galina
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Elly Tjan

2005-07-18 17:57:17 UTC

Natasha,

Actually I don't like to join arisan group. I had my
experiences that I got most of the time close to the
end of the cycle. Sometimes the croupier ( the head
who conducts the activity of arisan ) had no
responsibility or didn't want to pay the contribution
or ask continuelly from the winner. At last, the rest
of the member didn't get the amount of the money back
which they had deposited.

The purpose of their intention about arisan was good
for helping people who wanted to buy something and
didn't have much money to pay in cash. Secondly, they
could coop with the inflation of the Indonesian money
that was happening in 1965. At that time Indonesian
money had inflated very fastly. With the establishing
an arisan group, the inflation could be overcomed and
supported by the members of your group. The
contribution for the winner and non winnwer would be
increased according due to the inflation. But
sometimes the head of the arisan is making abuse or
trick to their friends. At the end of the arisan the
winner didn't want to pay anymore. It was tragic, and
at last the rest didn't get and lost their money.
Instead, they could buy something which were already
planned.

I ask you for your fever to make some correction.

Thanks in advance,
Elly

--- Natasha The Bear <***@yahoo.com>
wrote:

---------------------------------
Halliman,
It's still not clear to me. Does everybody end up
receiving the same amount of money as they donated?
Zero gain-Zero loss?
Natasha

Haliman <***@gmx.net> wrote:
Hi Natasha,

Thank you for your comment. What I described earlier
is the proper and
original arisan. It still continues monthly in the
circle of Indonesian
Consulate General in Vancouver, and it includes
several Indonesian
expatriates as well.

Arisan also extends into businesses, including motor
cycle and car
dealers, real estate, etc.

Unfortunately, there are also many kinds of gambling
disguised as arisan.

Regards,
Haliman

Post by Natasha The Bear
The donated money is what we would call the "pool"

in the U.S. But, I

Post by Natasha The Bear
am not familiar with what the name of that type of

activity is called.

Post by Natasha The Bear
If I understand correctly, at end of cycle of

meetings, each member

Post by Natasha The Bear
will have received the same amount as he/she as

contributed?

Post by Natasha The Bear
Natasha
Arisan is an Indonesian word. I don't know who

coined it and neither

Post by Natasha The Bear
its etymology. I cannot remember when I heard it

for the first time

Post by Natasha The Bear
either. Probably it was in late sixties or early

seventies. So far I

Post by Natasha The Bear
haven't found an English word that has the same

meaning with it.

Post by Natasha The Bear
Arisan is an act to collect a certain amount of

money from each member

Post by Natasha The Bear
of a group of people. The money is given to the

winner of a draw among

Post by Natasha The Bear
these people. In the next social gathering, the

same amount of money is

Post by Natasha The Bear
collected again from each member. They make a draw

again but the

Post by Natasha The Bear
previous winner(s) is/are excluded. This cycle of

arisan ends when each

Post by Natasha The Bear
member has received the collection. In the next

social gathering, they

Post by Natasha The Bear
create a new cycle of arisan.
The objectives of arisan are to make the social

gathering more

Post by Natasha The Bear
attractive and a mutual help to enable the members

to purchase something

Post by Natasha The Bear
beyond their affordability.
Could you tell me any English words that have

similar meaning with arisan?

Post by Natasha The Bear
Thank you.
Have a nice weekend.
Haliman
[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

Post by Natasha The Bear
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Ann.English

2005-07-17 04:44:58 UTC

Arisan is an Indonesian word. ...
Arisan is an act to collect a certain amount of money from each member
of a group of people. The money is given to the winner of a draw among
these people. In the next social gathering, the same amount of money is
collected again from each member. They make a draw again but the
previous winner(s) is/are excluded. This cycle of arisan ends when each
member has received the collection. ...
Could you tell me any English words that have similar meaning with arisan?

A "building society" today is a company which accepts savings and makes
loans. Up to the 1960s its primary function was like an arisan: to
accept a number of deposits over a period of years, and regularly to
ballot among its members the whole cost of a house.

If one did not want this prize at the time, perhaps because one was only
a child (the term of the agreement could be twenty or thirty years) then
the prize could be auctioned and purchased by someone else, and one kept
the money from the auction and one's place in the next draw. [1]

The winner of the prize still had to keep paying until everyone had
their house. [2]

In New Zealand, I believe, the building societies faded away because
after World War Two the Government made cheap loans to families to build
houses.

Ann English

[1] Of the common possessive adjectives in English (his, hers, yours,
mine, theirs, its, etc.) none have apostrophes. The "one" words and the
"body" words, with or without "else", are the exceptions. Michael Swan,
"Practical English Usage", Oxford. Unit 433

Exercise: Two of these sentences are correct English, and one sentence
is incorrect. Which sentence is wrong?

(a) Margaret's got my textbook.

(b) John's got her's.

(c) Everybody's got somebody else's!

[2] "Their" as a unisex singular pronoun meaning "his or her" is now the
usual form in written and spoken English, formal and informal, in
Government and educational use and in official documents. Some people
don't like it, but I think the word is here to stay. Swan, unit 505

Answer: (b) is wrong. Correct form: John's got hers.

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Haliman

2005-07-17 17:01:02 UTC

Hello Ann,

Thank you so much for your information about "Building Society".

You said that "their" as the replacement of "his or her" is gaining
popularity. Instead, I often use one's to replace his or her. Is it
appropriate? May I replace he or she with one or somebody? Which one
is the most acceptable?

Regards,
Haliman

Post by Haliman

money is

collected again from each member. They make a draw again but the
previous winner(s) is/are excluded. This cycle of arisan ends when each
member has received the collection. ...
Could you tell me any English words that have similar meaning with

arisan?
A "building society" today is a company which accepts savings and makes
loans. Up to the 1960s its primary function was like an arisan: to
accept a number of deposits over a period of years, and regularly to
ballot among its members the whole cost of a house.
If one did not want this prize at the time, perhaps because one was only
a child (the term of the agreement could be twenty or thirty years) then
the prize could be auctioned and purchased by someone else, and one kept
the money from the auction and one's place in the next draw. [1]
The winner of the prize still had to keep paying until everyone had
their house. [2]
In New Zealand, I believe, the building societies faded away because
after World War Two the Government made cheap loans to families to build
houses.
Ann English
[1] Of the common possessive adjectives in English (his, hers, yours,
mine, theirs, its, etc.) none have apostrophes. The "one" words and the
"body" words, with or without "else", are the exceptions. Michael Swan,
"Practical English Usage", Oxford. Unit 433
Exercise: Two of these sentences are correct English, and one sentence
is incorrect. Which sentence is wrong?
(a) Margaret's got my textbook.
(b) John's got her's.
(c) Everybody's got somebody else's!
[2] "Their" as a unisex singular pronoun meaning "his or her" is now the
usual form in written and spoken English, formal and informal, in
Government and educational use and in official documents. Some people
don't like it, but I think the word is here to stay. Swan, unit 505
Answer: (b) is wrong. Correct form: John's got hers.
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Ann.English

2005-07-17 23:35:02 UTC

... I often use one's to replace his or her. Is it
appropriate?

"One's" is very formal, and not always appropriate.

"Everyone brings their own lunch" is good.
"Everyone brings his or her own lunch" is OK.
"One should bring his or her own lunch" is so-so.
"One should bring one's own lunch" is grammatically correct, but sounds
like a deliberately old-fashioned use.

If you were writing dialogue in English, you would give the first
sentence above to young people, the second sentence to middle-aged
people, and the last sentence to the British ruling classes.

May I replace he or she with one or somebody? Which one
is the most acceptable?

Natasha The Bear

2005-07-18 03:25:10 UTC

How about "Everybody brings a lunch?" Let's skip all that his/her.he/she/its/their/one, etc. stuff.
Natasha

... I often use one's to replace his or her. Is it
appropriate?

May I replace he or she with one or somebody? Which one
is the most acceptable?

"One must do one's duty" is perfectly clear without saying beforehand
who "one" is. "One" means people in general, including yourself.

You can't say "Somebody(or Everybody or Nobody or Anybody) must do ONE'S
duty. That seems to say that they must do YOUR duty. Say "...THEIR
duty", or "... HIS OR HER duty."

You can say "He or she must do their duty" only if you have said
beforehand who he or she is. Unlike "one", he-or-she isn't a general
pronoun and doesn't include yourself. The same is true for "they."

"Someone" (etc.) is much the same as "somebody" (etc.) See a good
learner's dictionary.

Kind regards
Ann

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Haliman

2005-07-18 01:42:03 UTC

Thank you, Ann, especially for revealing the intricacies in English
usage. =-O

Regards,
Haliman

Post by Ann.English

... I often use one's to replace his or her. Is it
appropriate?

"One's" is very formal, and not always appropriate.
"Everyone brings their own lunch" is good.
"Everyone brings his or her own lunch" is OK.
"One should bring his or her own lunch" is so-so.
"One should bring one's own lunch" is grammatically correct, but sounds
like a deliberately old-fashioned use.
If you were writing dialogue in English, you would give the first
sentence above to young people, the second sentence to middle-aged
people, and the last sentence to the British ruling classes.

May I replace he or she with one or somebody? Which one
is the most acceptable?

Matthew Student

2005-07-18 22:31:00 UTC

Post by Ann.English

... I often use one's to replace his or her. Is it
appropriate?

"One's" is very formal, and not always appropriate.

Well, I AM 54 years old! I use "one's" often...

Post by Ann.English
"Everyone brings their own lunch" is good.

Grammatically, NO! But it is WIDELY used. I use it in speaking
but not in writing.

Post by Ann.English
"Everyone brings his or her own lunch" is OK.

I use this construction often.

Post by Ann.English
"One should bring his or her own lunch" is so-so.

Again, I use this construction because there is no English word that
combines his and hers.

Post by Ann.English
"One should bring one's own lunch" is grammatically correct, but

sounds like a deliberately old-fashioned use.

I guess that I am old-fashioned! Seriously, this usage is fine for
writing, but I yield to the common usage: "their lunch", in speaking.

Post by Ann.English
If you were writing dialogue in English, you would give the first
sentence above to young people, the second sentence to middle-aged
people, and the last sentence to the British ruling classes.

That makes me middle-aged! Ann, do you agree or disagree with this
comment: "It is always best to err on the side of correctness?"
I would LOVE to be able to give learners the insight to choose the
current, colloquial usage. But I also am mindful that learners are
graded and that learners must pass exams. So I give the "very
correct" answers, no matter how "dated" the usage may be in speaking.
I do so love your responses: they are "spot on"!
Matthew

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timefactor

2005-07-19 10:28:50 UTC

Hello group,

Could you, please, explain what's the difference between small and little. In what cases could I use them?

Thanks
Galina

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Natasha The Bear

2005-07-19 18:54:32 UTC

This is again one of those pair of words that are used to mean the same thing. But, I will tell you what the dictionary says: "Small" applies more to relative size determined by capacity, value, number (A relatively small back yard). "Little" is more absolute in implication often carrying the idea of petiteness, pettiness, insignificance, or immaturity (Your pathetic little smile).
I can guarantee you that if you ask 100 people to tell you the difference between those words they will tell you there isn't any.
I have a little dog; I have a small dog. What's the difference? None.
Natasha
timefactor <***@yandex.ru> wrote:
Hello group,

Could you, please, explain what's the difference between small and little. In what cases could I use them?

Thanks
Galina

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Matthew Student

2005-07-19 21:46:17 UTC

Post by timefactor
Hello group,
Could you, please, explain what's the difference between small and

little. In what cases could I use them?

Post by timefactor
Thanks
Galina

Dear Galina,
English does not have a clear, diminutive usage. Everything that
Natash has replied [ most correctly ] can be defined as:
"small" is absolute.
"little" is diminutive.
English has borrowed the French diminutive "-ette" for nouns.
A dinette set is a little set of chairs and a table. [for dinner
table]
Matty (diminutive for Matthew)

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Eduardo Kienetz

2005-07-19 17:11:02 UTC